These would include pedophilia, domestic violence, poverty, natural disasters, racial strife, etc. b) I want to distance myself and the Calvinists I know from the abusive people who mis-represent the theology. They certainly didnt bring freedom in Christ. That is what total and depravity mean these days, after all. Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. For a village to be wiped out? All we ask is that you pray for us when you get mad at us. I always thought of it as the Good News of the death and Resurrection of Jesus which resulted in the forgiveness of sins for those of us who believe. The farther away from direct, clear scripture I get, the more loosely I hold to ideas. Ill never forget a while back in our city when two young Christian college kids were killed, execution style, in a terrible, senseless crime. As for the double predestination, I wouldnt agree with either position youve posted but that is no surprise, as Im a non Calvinist. Thank you! Maybe I dont get out enough, but I cant remember the last time I heard or read a Calvinist leader saying these kinds of things, unless they were referring to someone like Brian McLaren. @ Argo: When people reject Calvinism because they think it makes us mindless automatons, that bothers me because that isnt what it is about. Understand that they think we are as illogical as we think they are illogical. I had Wade Burelson come to my little rinky-dink blog and debate me on my turf. Thats what I think the intention of this blog post was. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. if man does NOT get to decided the level of his depravity (by knowing good from evil and choosing it) then God must decide FOR himwhich means, again, that not being as bad as you could be is irrelevant. We might refer instead to TULIP as a doctrinal stance. The seeds of justification by doctrine were sown a long time ago. I hear the word "gospel" placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. I have never doubted the existence and presence of Jesus in my life. You personally may not think Cal teaches X, but there are plenty of other Cals who do. He sets a great example and I appreciate his ability to charitable in discussing beliefs that others dont believe or accept. This is as it should be, imo. A group, rightly or wrongly, is defined by the fruit that we see (often the problem with Christianity in general, right?). When I first discovered Reformed theology, I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. Jeff, whether it was my misperceptions or real perceptions of the doctrine that you hold dear to your heart, someone trying to correct my faulty ideas of Calvinism isnt going to benefit me whatsoever if I am at the emotional/spiritual end of my rope. We are to not worry about that; rather, be glad that any are saved. Admittedly, Im not famous enough to have followers trying to define Bulbeckism. (Okay, Calvin-haters, have at me for this unforgivable understatement. Arminianism: Because of the Fall, man has inherited a corrupted, depraved nature. This is also (imo) true for many, many people. Someone should alert Crossway immediately. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html. Was your family Christian? And requires even more general kindness and that continued diet in that warm kitchen. I have no problem with thatno one likes to be labeled. A person can be a conservative Christian without being Reformed or believing in Calvinism. If I remain silent, then Piper gets to define what it means to be Reformed, even though he denies a lot of Reformed theology and veers into hyper-Calvinism at times. My bet would be that some (many?) (Mark 12:28-34, ESV). My Aunt-in-law is one of the best living examples of Christ I know, I dont find her obsessed with doctrine, but she completely loves her neighbour. @ Steve D: I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. But those of us who are labeled as misconstrue-ers of Calvinism are simply pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. Pray for him. Written by Daniel Isaiah Joseph in Charts. @ Junkster: If Im wrong, I apologize. This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. These are things that we can work on together, no matter our view on election. The list 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians includes Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist), Stephen Tong, D. A. Carson, John F. MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. (though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). (Well, maybe those who are committed to doing evil to others arent asking those questions, but). you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. Accept that Calvinists findpeace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. To how many times I felt unsure and afraid & indeed crashed and burned big time in front of people. If we do, we must hang our heads in shame. Here is the question. Yes, Jeff S. It is important to try and balance the need to have a voice and going too vitriolic. This is simply human and not related to social faux pas. Calvinism is merely the attempt by one man to interpret the Bible; there are scores of others, men and women, who have attempted the same. He or she who has the bigger gun or knife or bombhe or she who has the juggernaut of platform or Church Leadership seniorityis the one who gets to compel others to their point of view. It caused her great pain to contemplate the Calvinist belief that God had ordained for her to be abused in such a manner. They equate Calvinism as spiritually intellectual stuff and non-Calvinist theology as far below reformed doctrine. Ill have to look that one up. His attitude impresses me. Sort of like reading Cliff Notes instead of the book. Mohler is either clueless or his inflated view of self distorts what he has done to the Southern Baptist Convention. Which is fine! ). LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! All I can say is that I do the best I have with the mind Ive been given. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. Accept that many Calvinists have never experienced a doctrinally rigorous, non-Calvinist church. I dont know. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. This can apply to spiritual things, to living life with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. Reformed theology teaches that God in His grace and mercy has chosen to redeem a people to Himself, delivering them from sin and death. I too have read Olson s book as well and appreciate his gentle spirit. I didn't quite understand the sin stuff. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Arminian_denominations. Rather, it is a doctrine that expresses classical Jewish orthodoxy, Muslim orthodoxy, and Christian orthodoxy with respect to the nature of God. None the less and in spite of his ignorance in all things spiritual, he came to trust the Savior in 1973. all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. . Many of us had grown up in non-Christian households and did not know many Christians. Pg 75 God has chosen THEM as the sole recipients of His TRUTH. what, exactly, is this thing called glory that we bring to God? You should see another Christian blog where the wars are almost as bad (hatred-wise) as the different Muslim sects slaughtering each other in Iraq & Syria. @ Daisy: Online discussions of religion and politics usually end by going up in flames, with a lot of nastiness to boot. I have the utmost respect for my long-time regular reader and pastor who happens to be Calvinist, Craig Vick, who posted the following comment on my blog article where I was struggling with the doctrinal/abuse confusion: For what its worth, from now on Ill make sure I think of your story and the stories of others before I express my theology. It was like the only choices I had were to swear allegiance to Calvin or give up my beliefs that align with what he taught about grace. Mennonite churches are great in Canada, evangelical, women allowed in all roles, and not really on one side or the other, but are focused on outreach, missions and allow many different people to preach in their pulpits (including some who would call themselves Reformed). Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved.. In this final submission on this series, I interact with the [] Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. That also struck me and started me thinking. Everything. I know there are some whose solution is that God limits Himself so that He is not all-knowing; I dont see this in Scripture. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. I think it is sad that the PC(USA) rejected the song because of a line that is part of their doctrinal heritage. Good point. Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar. And its a big enough issue that RC Sproul re-badges it to Radical Corruption. CALVIN! The idea that we are mindless automatons going through Gods motions is not what Calvinists, now or historically, have ever believed. I dont know if that helps or confuses- I wish I could have quoted more. That if we are only a little totally depraved we might only get a little condemned by God, and not die? The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. This contradictory appeal to both mystery and sound orthodoxy allows then to move the doctrinal yardstick back and forth on any whim or fancy because all they have to do is remind us all that there isnt any real way we can ever know for sure, so we might as well simply agree with them so as not to cause an unpleasant ruckus and create division or risk hurting feelings or whatever other obstacle to real debate they can think up. Are they involved in a joint venture? My experience has been that someone who adheres to Calvinism always shows up on a blog to defend it/him when they happen upon someone they feel is misrepresenting him/it. Ed was not so big on doctrine. Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. His notable works, such as The Courage to Be and the three-volume Systematic Theology, has inspired intellectual thinkers and commoners alike. When you get called a heretic,"barely a Christian" or whatever, think of it this way. By 'not real' I mean that the meaning is destroyed in the overall thought of the clause or sentence. Howard Hendricks 20. There is a prominent member in our church who is also in our study group. I believe that I am endowed by my Creator with the power to put an end to the vast majority of human misery and suffering in this life It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. Green 27. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. The ranks of well-known Arminians include historical and current day Roman Catholics, the Remonstrants of the 17th century and John and Charles Wesley. Fine- no one is calling him out. Many of us, view double predestination to be in great conflict with the character of God as He presents Himself in scripture. CALVIN! We were just glad that othersunderstood where we were coming from. Im talking about TULIP. Yes, some would slip away. Both groups will say you dont understand their views/religion, or they say you are misrepresenting them (even if you really are not and have read lots of books by ex, or current, members of their groups who explain what the group believes). These same people are taken to task for twisting the Calvin/Tulip/Reformed beliefs on blogs. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. Everything. Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. Theres nothing wrong with pondering and wondering at the truths Jesus represents. God, help us to love. And yes, theology would say that God permitting evil gives us a chance to to good, but thats a hollow thing to tell a rape victim. Of course, they mean the local church that thinks like them. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp. CALVIN!, The Bible? I dont have experience of dealing with, or helping someone else deal with, child sex abuse; and of course I dont have experience of being someone else. Indeed. Why? We didn't worry so much about exacting doctrine. With all due respect to the Jeffs, look at their root assumption, and the glaring contradiction: they constantly maintain that TRUTH as a function of God can by no means be apprehended by finite humans, and yet resolutely declare in the same breath that this is the very proof of the soundness of their doctrine. Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. And it seems the Neo-Cals operate the opposite way: they view everyone else from a Calvinist lens and themselves through an Arminian one. I understand that, and I certainly dont look down on you. Someone on another blog (I think it was another blog, unless I saw it here earlier) posted a link to this video. If you read it,you will most likely have a heart attack. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. Yet why do I still love Jesus, the Bible and read so many Christian authors? Even if they do end up with Pythonesque theology that embarrasses more thoughtful calvin sympathisers. This is close to or maybe is fatalism, the idea that man has no free will. But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. His Kingdom and Church were to be completely separate from civil governance. , @ Hester: Likewise, Hester, likewise! If Calvin hadnt written up on it, someone else may well have done subsequently. We all went to Bostons Youthtimeno mention of Calvinism, Armininism or in between like me. If all that they know are talking points, then it is hard to back them up. And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. The fervor of thismovement reminds me of theearly, heady days oftheJesus movement. And, for that matter, why is his style so difficult? Believe me, Ive tried. That has been my experience in dealing with Calvinists online, or lurking at their forums or blogs, yes. Matthew Pinson Michael Brown Michael Heiser Mildred Bangs Wynkoop Miner Raymond N Nathan Bangs Norman Geisler [footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology [/footnote] O P Paige Patterson Philip H. Towner Q R Randolph S. Foster Ravi Zacharias Richard Lenski Richard Watson I will not monopolize the conversation..I apologize for my run on posts. However i wish i wouldnt see this on a Pastor in order for me to chose a congregation in such denomination without fear of having a surprise, Eastern Orthodoxy Roman Catholicism Anglicanism(One is allowed to be a Calvinist soteriologically, and some exist, but it is a minority position) Lutherans(although they might similar to one who does not know the nuances of their doctrine) Methodists, Certain Baptists(Although Baptists have their roots in Zwinglian Calvinism, and are doctrinally incoherent when they reject it) Charismatics(due to the fact they are doctrinally incoherent when it comes to these things, you can technically say they are not Calvinists). Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! But that doesnt mean that the beliefs are necessarily untrue. To give a sense of scale for word count well over 600,000: Rule of thumb for both manuscript format and mass-market paperback is 250 words/page. Im sure God knew about it going in, and I know He/She wept even though at the time I felt abandoned by all the universe. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. Lets get this person through their crisis and love on them. Id like to agree with both, if thats ok. We need exactly the right kind of nutrition at exactly the right kind, but maybe not the milky kind because we emerge from trauma both far too old and still too young. Theyve boarded a bus and decided to ride it to the end of the line. NEVER allow them an unchallenged presumption. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. Please continue to dialog. When I struggle with this, my answer is always to look at the Cross- it seems all theists must deal with a God who allows evil. Would you want to answer that one? Anyways, just to say, Calvinism is a much larger group than the current T4G/TGC and followers. In spite of the current emphasis on Neo-Calvinism, it is still a minority position. I was challenged to think, to serve, to teach and to grow. So Sad. 1550-1616), who was not. This is why I dont like to appeal to the belief systems of RCC, reformers, or Charlemagne. They are charitable and give us the benefit of the doubt. Takes great delight in you living your life, the ups and the downs. However, there are a lot of us (from Liturgical Protestant churches, as well as the RCC, Orthodox churches, the German/Dutch anabaptist churches etc.) "A missionary is a qualified Christian sent out under the authority of a local church to an area of recognized need in order to pursue the work of the Great Commission." Michael Horton, in For Calvinism, w/ an intro by Roger Olson (a book I will probably keep mentioning, if you dont mind, because it deals with the issues discussed here and on other blogs) even has a chapter on the obnoxious ways of some Calvinists, and how to get past it. You seem to know the internal workings of God which amazes me. For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. Here is where I part company with much of Christian ideology, and heres why: Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. Anyway, its an article called Are There Two Wills In God?, 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. One more thing. Ravi Zacharias 26. He once called Wesley an inconsistent Calvinist. B. Warfield said, "The Calvinist, in a word, is the man who sees God. He is a loving man in spite of the baloney flung his way. Im sure many of us can point out similar starts in our own Christian lives where we later realised that some of the things we were taught were not quite Scriptural, and yet through certain people we came to Christ. Open Discussion Page, 1 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25. We need robust physiotherapy (which invariably hurts, but in a good way not least because at least in part you do it yourself rather than just being done to). Do arminians believe in salvation through faith? ++++++++++++++++. There are many bite marks on my tongue. It was populated by extremely insecure . I am not faulting anyone or saying that Calvinists are lazy. It depends, some advocates of Reformed theology say, on whether Christians on both sides are willing to tiptoe through the TULIP-the acrostic for five doctrinal points that set apart Calvinists. I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. This is why I tend to fall back to the WCF. I am a non-Calvinist (not quite an Arminian either) who lives and moves and has my being amongst Calvinists, the overwhelmingly dominant brand in my neck of the woods. It is how Calvinism discusses those underlying ideas that causes existential damage and thus, pain. Per the God as author of evil thing, Ive only ever heard of one Calvinist who came close to saying this and it was Sproul Jr. Unless I either stop believing what I think is true or shut up about it, it seems I will forever put in a box of this nonsense, unloving idea that God is the author of evil and we are mindless automatons. There wasnt so much in your face going on. So when people try to argue logical conclusions of my beliefs, I tend to get upset if they arent conclusions that I arrive at. Finally, we must work together whenever possible. As my parents were from Scotland, NIreland.we all related to bring a wee bit different. You can even put your feet up I dont mind! Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. Ive never spent much time self-identifying as a Calvinist. Grabs your hand and raises your arm & enthusiastically shows you off as The winner and still the champ! Feels your joy with you. Witherington doesn't like to be put in either camp, and Lenski is Lutheran. Westboro Baptist uses the Bible for a proof text for hatred. They should not get to define theology that has been around much longer than them. My frustration when Ive discussed Calvinism online has been that its others who want to push me into make it all fit boxes. And its complicated by the same problem that David came up against (and I quote the Psalm not because Im trying to educated everyone but because it puts it so well): If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were rising against me, I could hide. Besides, you have a long way to go to be considered mean. Everything just fell apart. And with a similar base assumption as Islam would resemble Islam as time goes on and Entropy sets in the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.. Instead we have to accept that we don't understand their paradigm and choose to believe that they love God and believe that they are faithfully serving Him. I dont see you behaving as a bully. I will say they are much more composed personalities. Argo. He didnt say to have faith in the Reformation, or Tulip, or Keller, or your pastor/elder, husband, or Mary. Systematic theology books are plentiful.

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